Young people’s experience of court and pre-proceedings

[Introduction]  

This is a Research in Practice podcast supporting evidence informed practice with children and families, young people and adults.

Hannah: Welcome to this Research in Practice podcast. My name is Hannah Scott. I'm a research and development officer for Research in Practice. I'm also a qualified social worker and I've previously worked in child protection roles. I do a small amount of independent social work and I'm a systemic practitioner. I'm delighted to have with me three young people from the Family Justice Young People's Board today. The Family Justice Young People's Board, that will be FJYPB, are a group of more than 70 children and young people aged between eight and twenty-five who live across England and Wales. All members have had either a direct experience with the family justice system or have an interest in children's rights and the family court. Their overall aim is to support the work of the Family Justice Board, which aims to deliver improvement to the family justice system so it provides the best result for children that come into contact with it. They work to promote the voice of children and young people that have experienced family breakdown, including those children and young people who are involved in the family court proceedings. And they work with a whole range of family justice organisations and agencies which include Cafcass, the Ministry of Justice, the Family Justice Board, mediation services and lots of other organisations, and they do some brilliant work. So, I'm delighted that they've been able to get involved in this podcast today. So, I'm going to start by letting you each do a quick introduction if that's okay. So, Amy would you like to go first?

[Background]  

Amy: I'm Amy and I'm 23 years old and, yes, I'm really excited to be here today and hopefully that this will be an opportunity to help guide social workers in the future to not make the same mistakes and improve their work.

Hannah: And do you want to just give us a short overview about your experiences that have led you to become involved in the FJYPB and your experiences with family justice and social workers?

Amy: So, from quite a young age I had social workers coming in and out of my life, but that was through the local authorities. So, I have public law experience and I never went directly through the family courts, but I have a great interest in it of course because I got taken into care. And at an older age, now I feel in the position to give back and hopefully give something to the community.

Hannah: Thank you. And Khalil?

Khalil: Hiya, My name is Khalil. I'm part of the Family Justice Young People's Board and I am 23. And I have had experience of international adoption and also fostering in 2015 at the age of 16/17. So, I've had experience of adoption through the courts, but fostering through the local authority. And I hope today the information I give might help people in the future to assist in their training.

Hannah: And Imogen?

Imogen: Hi, I'm Imogen. I'm 18 years old and I joined the Family Justice Young People's Board to try and make a more positive experience to other children and young people going through proceedings than what mine was. I had a mixture of both private and public law proceedings with my time in court lasting around seven years with me being taken directly to court in the end by my birth mother.

[Experience of Section 20 voluntary care agreements]  

Hannah: Okay, thank you very much for sharing that. So, in the podcast today we're going to explore how the family justice system felt for each of you and what key messages really we can share for the social workers and practitioners that work in the family court and the family justice system. So, Amy, I know you've spoken previously a little bit about the use of what we call Section 20 and, sort of, voluntary care, which I think was used in your situation. Could you just talk through a little bit about that. Was that your first step towards care proceedings? And what was your understanding of that process, and how did that feel for you?

Amy: So, above all I just want to clarify that Section 20, we call it a voluntary care agreement, but I wouldn’t say that going into care is voluntary, like, a child, a young person, they don't want to go into care. If they could stay with their families they would. So, first of all for me when I read that, a voluntary care agreement in the situation that I was in at the time just made me feel really angry at the system because there was no means that I wanted to do this. And the process at the time, I never really got explained what it was all about because I remember I'd gone to school as normal and then I'd said bye to my own mother in the morning, like, my birth mother. And it always brings back really bad memories when either... it was all really sudden so I just disclosed the information at school. The police came in and social services came in, but that same information I'd been disclosing multiple times before. So, the Section 20 was a really good thing for me when they used it, although they didn't explain it, any option to go into care was what I wanted and for me that was the answer to seven years of sexual violence and going through all of that. Where I had been disclosing it multiple times allegations had been made but nothing. No child protection policy really was used and put in place to prevent this from happening.

Although people knew that stuff was happening, it wasn't stopped. And with the Section 20 it was able to stop because I was able to be listened to because I had the Gillick competence, I think it was called, and they were able to say, 'Right, she can make the decision, she's not able to live with her parents, she can go into care.' But, yes, I wish in general that a Section 20 could be used for younger children sometimes, because even at the age of twelve some young people are aware that what they know is right and it just needs explaining to them and needs to be more open there and talked about as an option, in my personal opinion.

Hannah: That's a really interesting reflection, I think. Really powerful for social workers to think about, and a lot of conversations we have in practice is about the use of language, and quite often from a parent's perspective and it's the parent that will sign that Section 20 in those situations and, yes, we may use the phrase to try and explain Section 20 as voluntary care. That's, yes, really powerful to hear that if that's not what you want, or even if it is, that you're in agreement with that. It's still not an easy situation and that phrase could maybe trivialise that experience. So, I think that's a really powerful thing to share. Thank you. And was that then followed by formal proceedings for you? Was Section 20 that, sort of, entrance into the legal process for you?

Amy: No. So, my case was quite complicated in terms of when I was younger the criminal courts were involved. I lived abroad for some time and there were different courts involved there, but nothing was even taken to the family courts, but it was all criminal proceedings due to the information that I'd given. So, I had the initial court hearing when I was quite young and then police involvement on and off doing investigations, but due to certain professional malpractices things weren't investigated how they should have been done and it left things carrying on to an extent that it just got impossible for me to remain in the situation that I was in.

[Respite care and foster care]  

Hannah: Yes. And have either of you, Khalil or Imogen, had experience of, sort of, what we call Section 20 care?

Khalil: I've had some experience of voluntary care but that was me voicing my opinions, firstly, to go into what they called respite. So, it's like going into a family or somewhere for the weekend because they thought I was not safe at weekends, I need to be somewhere during education. And then obviously when that was voiced to the people who adopted me it turned out violent, aggressive, not understanding the situation and it was a violent home to be living in, which has been since I was about the age of eleven. But no-one ever listened to my opinions. And I said to them, 'How can you put me in respite? There are so many safeguarding issues, what's going to happen if I go on a Friday or come back on a Monday after school, what are you going to put in place?' So, what I then decided was to go into full-time foster care which lasted nearly two years.

Hannah: And was that at your request then that that foster care placement was initiated?

Khalil: Yes, I got a phone call while I was in college and things got delayed and delayed and delayed, and I just said, 'You made a decision and you left me in limbo over the summer holiday. I need to be in foster care because things have escalated to the point where I can't be brought back down.

Hannah: Yes, and that's a really big thing for any young person to have to do to say... almost direct the social workers and the local authority to say, 'I'm not safe, I want you to take those steps.' Rather than it being that professional judgement. So, that must have been a really big thing for you to do and to ask for?

Khalil: It is a massive decision to take on yourself because you're being forced to do it. I knew since age of about 11 to 15/16, safeguarding was always on alert. They'd probably come out to the home at least once a week because I raised safeguarding issues and safeguarding was never done properly. So, they never spoke to me in the school. Only when I disclosed something. And then when I got home then they'd turn up without me knowing they were going to come. Which left me in a situation and other people, if that was the same thing happening to them, where you can't speak in front of your parents, you can't speak in front of the people who have adopted you or you're in their care. Because I was threatened if I spoke out that I could be killed and it's a very high chance of that happening because it does happen in my culture.

[The voice of the young person in care arrangements]   

Hannah: Yes, that's a lot for a young person to do isn't it, and it sounds like that step to really feeling like your voice was heard was you having to take quite a drastic action of saying, 'I want to go into foster care.' Is that fair to say or were there any other points where you felt your voice was listened to, or, even once you were in foster care were there still things that you felt weren't necessarily being listened to from your voice?

Khalil: I never felt I was listened to throughout school and throughout the local authority. Going into foster care was actually the best thing for me to happen because it was a safe place to live. But unfortunately, when I turned to eighteen I, kind of, got wiped off the system. No-one could ever find me and therefore I didn't even exist because my foster carer was trying to find out information over my worker when I turned eighteen, and then things broke down because there were no professionals or social workers coming into the foster home. So, there was no foster care, social worker and there wasn't a social worker for the other people or me, which relationships got broken down and I took the decision to leave the foster home because I didn't think it was appropriate and fair for the other two kids to see what was going on between me and the foster family. So, I just said to myself, 'I'll go somewhere else and let them be happy, not listen to this.' They're only nine or seven, they shouldn't be seeing these things happening. But after then I got support of writing a letter to the foster family and the young kids to explain everything in a child way after probably, like, a year. And then at the age of 21 or 22 that contact was started again with my foster family that I lived with which now we still have contact.

Hannah: That's nice to hear that you've still got that relationship with them despite what sounds like quite a difficult time around the point you reached 18. And it sounds like there are again quite a lot of, sort of, key messages and learning there in terms of approaching 18 and the age where foster care may not continue. We know there is provision. There should be support up until 25 and, you know, there are different services, but it sounds like those conversations weren't necessarily held with you and it's something that again we're, you know, particularly mindful of in the work that we're doing at the moment around the family justice system of what happens after proceedings and what support is there for families. Because if it goes from lots of things happening to nothing that can be quite difficult as well, I think, for families.

 [Language and accessibility needs in international cases]  

Khalil: And especially what professionals are involved because certain professionals are very well and it's evidenced that there are some good workers out there but you do get the odd one who doesn't understand you and writes things the way they think. Even, like, in my pathway or staying put plan, all the words and then things that I said never got to put into account, it was all adult-ish. I think a lot of families who have these kind of things, the child doesn't get listened to. It was evident in my case if they came and did house visits they tried to have an Arabic person come in. But if they didn't, if it was an after school visit or during a school visit, the family members would always be told to speak on my behalf and translate. But the translation wasn't taught to me, so, only if I heard the conversation in the language and I shouted, my voice was never ever listened [to]. Even in school obviously first year I didn't have the language of English very well. My language barriers weren't the best at the time, but my voice was never listened to, and even I was not communicated to me very well. Like, now I know there are things in place like the police, you can ring them and, you know, if you're in a place you can't speak you can press a number on the phone, like a code, it's to tell them that you're in, like, a domestic abuse situation or something and they can come out. That was never communicated to me. Because I rang the police a few times which I couldn't speak but they never came out or did anything.

Hannah: So, it sounds like there were some potentially missed opportunities to really support you in getting your voice heard which may have prevented that situation that you've explained where you had to say, 'I want to be taken into foster care.' And maybe if you'd have been supported to have your voice heard and have those interpreters and be seen in those different settings that you may have been able to avoid that situation?

Khalil: Yes, maybe the situations, or, a lot of people told... when I told them my story or told them everything that happened, there was all the professionals saying, 'Why have the local authority not intervened and gone to court and got a care order? You should have been at least looked after since the age of twelve.' That's what everyone was saying.

Hannah: Was the decision made by the court for you to move into foster care, or, were you moved into foster care and then the court proceedings started?

Khalil: No, there were no court proceedings because I think I was 17 or 16, they said because I was an adult that they didn't need court.

[Cases in public law and private law]  

Hannah: Thank you for sharing that. Imogen you've spoken about experiencing both public and private proceedings which we know that a lot of social workers, the majority of the work is public proceedings but there is an increasing amount of private law cases that social workers are becoming involved in. Can you talk a little bit more about that experience and how those two different processes worked alongside each other and felt for you?

Imogen: Yes, so, my experiences, kind of, I didn't really understand at the time the difference between the two, but the police and social services got involved and I had social workers and guardians throughout, kind of, my proceedings. Primarily it was my school, my primary school, once I disclosed some information about abuse that was happening in my home that got social services involved in my life, of which I had some, kind of, more negative experiences trying to disclose this information where I was often told that this could not be happening in my home. Or, that in my case, it was my mother who was abusing my dad over me and they would say that my mother wasn't capable of these things and that she did love me, which was quite a difficult experience. And towards the end of my proceedings I'd already been taken out of my mother's care, and because my dad could look after me I had moved to live full-time with my dad and I was having supervised contact with my mother in public places and with professionals present. At the end I ended up having a final proceeding of which when I started to say I didn't want to have this contact with my mother, they involved, kind of, a guardian and solicitors and I had my own solicitor. Which is where I think it verges on the public law side rather than private law where my dad wasn't involved in our proceedings anymore and my solicitor was representing me to try and have no contact with my mother.

Hannah: And you mentioned, sort of, being told by professionals that those things that you were talking about weren't happening. How did that feel for that to be said to you, and what do you think was influencing the social workers in that situation in their judgement?

Imogen: So, in my experience the reasons for things being quite problematic in my house was that my mother had really severe mental health illnesses that weren't being treated, and with her mental health problems it meant that she was quite good at keeping this from professionals. So, when we'd have assessments by social services or when people come and see us out about on, kind of, a day to day, they wouldn't pick up on these signs. And it was only, kind of, after the years and years of me keep on trying to say the same things were happening that the judge ordered a psychological evaluation of our family where they were able to see for themselves that my mother wasn't capable of parenting me. But I think it was difficult for the professionals to see and that it was all happening, so to speak, behind closed doors. Like, it was very difficult to see that what was happening and the professionals-, there was one professional who once said to me that I was too young to wish to not see my mother and that I would regret this decision when I was older. But I've been out of contact with my mother for maybe six years now and I don't regret my decisions.

Hannah: I think when we spoke before you mentioned about domestic abuse and almost disbelief that a female could be a perpetrator of that. Do you want to, sort of, talk through that a little bit?

Imogen: Yes. So, I think in my experience one of the things was that my mother would try and say that my dad was alienating me from her, and this was often a narrative, kind of, believed by the courts over me trying to disclose what had been happening with my mother. And I think one of the professionals, there was, kind of, one social worker who really didn't believe what me and my dad were saying. My school had got involved and they understood what I was saying about what was going on at home and this professional just said to me, 'Your mother can't be capable of these things.' Which was really difficult because at the time all I wanted to do was to not live with her because it was really, really difficult living with not only her mental health really affected our lifestyle, but also she would ignore me for, kind of, days on end. But they couldn't believe that my mother would be doing this to me and I think that was what was really difficult because often it can be seen that maybe dads are more abusive. But in my scenario that wasn't the case and it was really hard to try and get the professionals to get rid of this bias that they had, to understand why in my example and experience, it wasn't my dad. It was my mum, and it wasn't safe for me to be living with my mother despite the fact that, kind of, the natural tendency would be for me to live with my mother.

Hannah: Yes, I think that's a really important point, and again a reflection for social workers about looking at the gender roles and looking at those internal biases that each of us will have, but the importance of acknowledging those in practice and really focusing on the child's voice to make sure that that information is being balanced and weighed up, isn't it? Thank you for sharing that. So, Khalil, it sounds like it ended up in the family court, but did you have some experience in, sort of, the criminal courts at all?

Khalil: There was a family court for five years, but that was abroad, that was back in Yemen. But I did end up going to give evidence in a police station for my domestic abuse, but there was some interference, which apparently I was told it should have been going to court, but it never ended up in court because they were saying certain things and they were being in favour of the person who was causing the problems. So, they weren't being on my side at all.

Hannah: So, that was talking to the police about your experience of the harm that you had suffered and that it hadn't progressed to a criminal court. How did that you make you feel that it didn't progress and that that wasn't taken any further?

Khalil: I was not impressed because they said, 'We can't prosecute this person because they're too old.' And other people were, like, 'No, it doesn't matter about their age, end of the day you deserve justice of what's happened to you.' It was strange. Where were all the safeguarding reports? Because there was a lot of notes written when I was at school and they went missing when the police went to the local authority to investigate, and they even checked all the records and all the safeguarding letters and safeguarding notes and files were missing, which had an impact on the case probably getting to court even more.

Hannah: So, you feel that the, sort of, the lack of bringing together that multi-agency information had an impact on that criminal aspect of the case that you wanted to proceed and have your voice heard in that respect then?

Khalil: Yes.

[Cases in criminal court and family court]  

Hannah: And, Amy, I think you've mentioned a little bit as well about experience of the criminal court. Do you want to talk through, sort of, your experiences there?

Amy: So, when I was quite young the police investigations had started and it took... they said it was quick, so, to get to courts it took about a year to get to the criminal court. But in terms of my age at the time, they tried to make it a lot easier for me in terms of instead of taking it to the crown court they took it to a magistrates court instead, but obviously the case gets dealt with differently in the two courts. And, so, I used to be selectively mute, but I never got this diagnosis because I couldn't physically speak in these situations and verbalise my opinions. So, at the time I didn't really know what was... you know, I knew what I wanted but I couldn't express that in any way, even if it were writing I couldn't write it either, and for years I always thought, 'Why couldn't they have done it in the crown court? Why did they make it for me, just for me, in the magistrates court because there's not a proper judge in the magistrates court apparently?' But then it was all a bit mixed messages, so I did have a judge but the judge wasn't wearing one of the wigs. So, for me, I couldn't make sense of it. I was quite young at the time but I knew when I wanted to give evidence I wanted to be in that room because I didn't want the video link, because I didn't want the perpetrator to see what I'd look like because I'd aged a bit, but I was always mature in my thinking at the time and I'd always over think things.

So, I didn't want the perpetrator to recognise me even if it were just three years along the line. I thought it's better to be there and he doesn't see me and I'm there giving my evidence. But I didn't feel supported in giving my evidence whatsoever because I had a victim support officer. I think I got to meet them half an hour before the case had actually started and, so, before the hearing it was a bit awkward. You're sitting in this room with this lady sitting there who's a volunteer. She wants to help you and you can't communicate with her that you don't want her in the room, you want your teacher with you, because this is what I wanted. I just wanted my teacher to come in with me. And with my little voice that I had, which I actually managed to say what I wanted, they said, 'She's not allowed to come in the room, she's not trained.' But for me now looking back at that, if a child has got somebody independent with them who is not involved in the case and that's their teacher then why can't they come in there? Even if they don't have the training. And the teacher was willing to do that too. And for me also meeting the victim support officer half an hour before the case is not enough time to build a relationship because she's just a random person for you and it would have just been easier if they didn't stick her in with me, and when I gave the evidence I felt like I was being the criminal and being asked all these questions again and again and then the prosecutor was actually coming down to me and saying, 'Why don't you speak up? You've got to speak up.'

And it was actually quite shouty towards me and an aggressive tone, and it always makes me angry to think back now. Firstly, it was a child and secondly that child could barely speak because they were so anxious about their situation. Also, the fact that they kept on questioning my evidence, like, as in, 'Oh, well, you surely would have known what time it was on the clock.' I said, 'I never went into this place to expect it to happen.' And then they'd go and tell me, 'Well, sure you would know whether it's two minutes, two hours.' And, so, I couldn't express that and all I just did was stay silent and say, 'I don't know.' Which obviously wasn't great support for my case. And in the court building itself one of the sheets had actually fallen down. They'd Blu-tacked up paper to hide the perpetrator in the box and because I had quite severe PTSD at the time... but then the fact that that had fallen down and I could physically see him, I freaked out, but I just froze as I did at the time. So, in general at the criminal court I found that when the hearing took place a lot of assumptions were made about mental health in general. At the time I didn't have a diagnosis, i.e. depression. But people, professionals who weren't psychologists assumed that I had depression due to my father moving out when I was young.

But little did they know that later it would all be involved in a much bigger case, in a whole paedophile ring. So, it was a lot harder and my father was involved in that. So, when they made the assumption that I had depression based on my father moving out and therefore I allegedly made up the story about this man in the court, and that was the story that I was being told by the professionals themselves in the court saying, 'Your mental health is not in a state.' And again, I couldn't say anything. But, again, looking back now I can really understand as to the reasons why I reacted in the certain way and people said, 'Well...' Because my mum's evidence being an unreliable witness in the court, at the time they didn't know that so obviously they didn't know much better, but the assumptions were made. 'Okay, she's got poor mental health. She's not eating properly. So, that's due to depression.' And also, the fact that I hadn't actually had a social worker until the court proceeding had ended, and then I had a social worker doing an assessment because of my mental health. But it didn't make sense to me that I hadn't had that support ongoing from the beginning and I'd just attached to this police officer, this detective, and when he was not allowed to get involved anymore obviously that was another relationship which broke down for me.

But further on down the line investigations took place after this court process, but it was all a bit going back to the initial ones. So, everything was all mixed up by professionals and information, and then I was held accountable for them not keeping record of things because in that court itself, I go back a couple of years later and ask for the records, and they say they have no record of the court case ever being held there. I give them the relevant information. So, for me that feels like, you know, a child had this major incident in their life and they have no record of that this person was in court, and that is the key to a lot of the answers of how things panned out basically. But going back to the thresholds that we were talking about, about family courts being a balance of probability and criminal courts being beyond reasonable doubt, for me, I've only recently looked into that, as in because I'm such a nerd that I want to study law, but just looked into generally if a child reports abuse in a family court, for example, and says their parent is doing this to them, it's a balance of probability. So, there has to be no specific evidence in proving beyond reasonable doubt. So, if there's any speculation of doubt in a criminal court you're just, sort of, pushed off as, 'Oh, it didn't happen. It's not true.' Because they couldn't prove it with all the evidence.    

So, if you have a good solicitor or a lawyer on the other side then, again, that's a socio-economic thing. Our family had no money to afford a decent lawyer and I got a public one, and what I would wish is that for future children to be able to choose their lawyer from a range of public ones because my voice wasn't being heard and the defendant was getting heard and he'd paid so much money for his that he got through the court case easily. No criminal... so, he's got the record that he was taken to court for this. The police knew it had happened but obviously there was no proof of it. So, for me that didn't give me justice. But in a family court, for example, I would have got taken away from my family a lot earlier if I had disclosed it in a family court, or in that reams of things, because in public law and with police they have to have physical evidence of it and they look at you as if you're just making up stories because you've previously had a case found not guilty, and then future evidence is, like, 'Well, that evidence seems a bit strange. She keeps saying things again and again.' But if they hadn't made that assumption, if they had looked at it at a blank case, a blank slate from after that court case then they would have got to the conclusion a lot earlier that this was all interlinked.    

But people didn't get to that conclusion and I would just hope, hope, hope so much that authorities and multi-agency work, they all work together and understand that in this country things still do go on. We might not see it or know of it but we would be naive to say that, like, trafficking and things aren't happening. Because what a child discloses to you is not always the full extent of things. So, it's important to have somebody you trust like a social worker, make sure that relationship is there as soon as the child reports any kind of alleged abuse. There's always a reason as to why they say something even if it's not true parts of it. I always wish for every child whoever makes a disclosure, to have a social worker or a youth worker to work with them and come to the bottom of things and understand exactly where this is coming from and, yes, understand them and really advocate for them.  

[Young people’s perspective on proceedings and their paperwork]    

Hannah: Yes, I think that's really powerful. It's not just listening to what the child's saying but it's using that analysis, which is a word that's used a lot in social work practice and, you know, oh, it often comes up about social workers need to analyse and think about not just what the child is saying but why are they saying it and what might be happening. And I think it's a really powerful story that you've spoken through as well, and seeing it from a child's perspective in terms of those different court thresholds and how that must feel to say you're believed in one court but not in another. As a social worker I've had discussions with parents and adults about them saying, 'Well, I wasn't found guilty in a criminal court, so, why are you pursuing this as a social worker or in a family court?' And that can cause confusion from that adult's perspective, but looking at that from the other way round as a child as well and thinking those messages that you're not believed I think is really important for all professionals working within family justice to think about. So, thank you for sharing that. So, did either of you have the opportunity to read any of your paperwork or to sit down with a social worker, or a judge, or a Cafcass guardian to really talk about what was happening in court?  

Imogen: Yes, I did get to see some of the paperwork. I was, kind of, best updated towards the end of my proceedings in the final court case that was between me and my mother, and my guardian and my solicitor at the time were really good at keeping me informed. And I was slightly older at this point so they could inform me of more what was going on. Previous to that I felt as if I wasn't, kind of, best informed about what was going on. Often, I had quite a lot of professionals in and out of my life. I think I had fourteen FCAs (Family Court Adviser) over a period of time, like, fourteen FCAs and the social workers working with our family. Which was really difficult to, kind of, build the relationship with any of them and was really difficult for me to disclose anything that was happening because I didn't feel like I knew them, and it was often difficult for them to share information with me because they were always changing. And it was probably why more so my school got involved, and my school were probably the best place for me to find out information until the last proceedings of which I was party to the information and so could find out a bit more.  

Hannah: And, so, when you were party to the information, was that then because you were older and you were, sort of, assessed to be competent to be able to be more directly involved in those proceedings then?  

Imogen: Yes, I think so, and I think it was more so because it was no longer a, kind of, battle between my mum and my dad, but I was already out of my mother's care and it was about ending our contact relations, or reducing them, or organising them to be something that we could both agree to. And that was when the professionals more so than ever involved me in the discussions. And I think I would say part of that was maybe because of... they probably saw me as credible because previous to that they hadn't really believed what was going on. They had, kind of, not listened to my voice at all when I was trying to explain what was happening between... when me and my mother were just living together, the two of us. But after that because we'd gone through so many sets of proceedings before of which what I had been saying the whole way through was finally acknowledged in one of the later proceedings, I think then they listened to my voice a bit more and I had more of a direct, kind of, say, and I met with the judge which really helped in my proceedings.  

Hannah: And how did that feel to meet with the judge then?  

Imogen: So, I remember being quite overwhelmed about it at first. So, I'd written two letters, I think, with FCAs to the judge before that about how I was feeling about everything, and then when I went and spoke to the judge it was... because we'd had the same judge on every set of proceedings that we'd had, it was really good to finally meet the person that was making these decisions and being able to discuss what I felt was going on and what I thought was best, kind of, for me and safest for me. And he was really good at listening to me and was probably one of the, kind of, pivotal moments in our proceedings because he listened to me when I said that, you know, my mum was able to conceal her struggles more so with professionals when they assessed us, and this is one of the reasons why we had the psychological assessment of our family because previous to that nothing had really flagged up with professionals. And after that conversation the judge ordered in the court for us to have this psychological assessment and then for the findings to be brought back to the court. And in that example of him listening to me my life was changed for the better. He did listen to what I said, and through the psychological assessment things were actually able to change.  

Hannah: I think that's a really powerful message as well for other young people if they are feeling-, you know, talking to a judge does feel really daunting. It feels really daunting to social workers to think about, you know, being on the stand and talking in front of judges, so, we have to think about how would that feel if we-, we might offer to a young person, 'Would you like the opportunity?' But it still takes quite a lot of courage and understanding, I think, to be in that position to say, 'Yes, it's something that I'd like.' And it sounds like a key part in that was professionals supporting you in first, writing to the judge then as well. So, is that something that you would say is, sort of, important for workers to promote?  

Imogen: Yes, definitely. I think writing to the judge initially really helped in being able to first, kind of, introduce what was going on to the judge. I know obviously the judge knew, but from my perspective I felt that previously when I'd had FCAs and social worker who, kind of, doubted what I was saying and didn't really represent this as a court effectively, being able to then say directly to the judge in the letter, 'This is how I feel. These are my words and what I'm trying to tell you.' Was really important, and it also meant when I got to meet with the judge that we, kind of, referred to the letters that I'd previously written, which was good because they had direct words from what I had been saying.  

[The opportunity to have your voice heard]    

Hannah: And, Amy, is there anything that you want to, sort of, share about your experiences of talking to professionals, getting your voice heard, or, you know, did you speak to a judge at all?  

Amy: So, I did actually get to speak to the judge before the criminal court proceeding and we all met and I think that was a clear moment in my life, despite the case being unfavourable, the outcome I mean, he let me sit on his chair and I still remember that always gave me that big sense of confidence suddenly. And I don't know how because the whole way, until the actual hearing I'd been saying, 'Oh, I will do it on a video link giving evidence.' But on that day, I decided I will do it in here. And it was the judge who actually made that happen for me because I whispered to him when I was on that chair, more confident and was, like, 'Yes, yes, I want to be in the court room and do it.' Because that empowered me in a way to say my truth and I always remember back to that. So, that was like Imogen just said, a pivotal moment really despite-, you can't blame a professional for one thing necessarily because they can only do their best. They're only people. But the way that he made me feel in that moment is partially the reason why I do the things I do now, like, on the Family Justice Young People's Board, because it's given me the confidence to go out there and say to people, you know, 'You're not alone out there and there is support out there eventually.' And in terms of other professionals in my life, I've had probably quite a few. Relationships were never that easy for me.    

So, I usually build up barriers. But the most positive relationship I've had is actually quite recently with one of my PAs (Personal Assistant) because I'm a care leaver now, and I still do receive support. She was really good. I'd requested a new PA out of completely different reasons because I'd built up complete barriers towards her because of, you know, stuff going on in my own life and then reading my own file and having that all back, and I'd blamed her. But again, it wasn't her fault because she'd got into my life a lot later than all this stuff had happened. And then in that moment when she was actually showing her human side and not just a machine social worker side, and she said, 'I was actually really upset and I actually had to stop in my car afterwards, after our meeting, to let it all out.' And I actually think because that relationship, I thought we had that relationship and when we met up the next time and we discussed it again, she showed me that she was still there for me and that she wouldn't hold that against me and that she did actually acknowledge how I felt. She said, 'I can't change that you feel upset and angry at the system for everything that's happened.' That she would reverse that. And I think even if that's more recent it still plays a bit part in my life because, you know, it's drawing a circle that's all the way I want to see it.    

You draw a circle to try and heal from everything which has happened, and the fact that she acknowledges how I feel is a big part of my life. And other professionals, police, quite a lot of involvement. The first detective that I had, he had children of his own and it was just brilliant the way that he spoke to me as if I were his child because he showed that level of openness and funny side of him. 'Oh, I wore my best tie for you.' And all of that emotional connection with somebody, it's not about getting the outcome necessarily, it's the little events that you remember in your life. So, even if it's as silly as a red tie, for example, and I can still remember that, it's showing that human side of you, and I think that's a message I want to give to all professionals, to remember to show that human side of you. Kids who are going through tough times, a lot of them just want to be acknowledged and not to be fixed most of the time. Yes, we want a solution, but at the same time just acknowledge how we feel and don't always try and fix us.  

[Advice for practitioners]    

Hannah: Yes, I think that's really important because sometimes we can be really focused on the outcome and, you know, as social workers we can be anxious about young people we work with and thinking about that. But even if families don't get the outcome that they want, it's so important that they feel they've been listened to in that process and that can often make those difficult outcomes easier to accept for both parents and carers and young people. And I think that's really come across in the stories I think that you've both given today as well, so, thank you for that. What do you think the best bit of practice was, or the most positive situation from all your experiences that could be quite powerful for workers to hear?  

Imogen: For me, mine was one of my social workers at the time, she decided to take me to go and meet with her. She picked me up from school one day and we met, kind of, outside the home and outside of school, which for me was a massive thing in that previous to that I'd only ever met one of my social workers in the same building as my mother was and that had been really difficult for me to feel comfortable to say anything that was happening. It was so important for me to be able to feel safe and comfortable and to be able to even talk about what was going on at home. So, for me, that was probably the best bit of practice.  

Hannah: Thank you, and what about for you Amy?  

Amy: For me, personally, I would say it was my counsellor at the time. Again, with another allegation that I'd made later in my life but after another incident, that one counsellor who I'd only known for a short period of time, she always believed in me, she always fought my case. And even if it wasn't part of her job, she would be calling up social services, she would be calling up the authorities, and she never gave up. She always told me, like, 'You've got this and I believe in you.' And although it overstepped the professional mark, you know, you're not supposed to have-, there's a no touch policy, but we had a hug just because that was the only thing that I needed at the time. Like, you know, you just wanted to cry and that comfort, that physical connection, although that's not really professional practice in that sense, that was the most important thing which any professional's ever done for me personally because they went out of their way and they went that extra mile to make sure that I was safe.  

Hannah: Yes. And then finally if there's, sort of, one top tip or key piece of advice that you would want to give to any practitioner that works in family justice, so, a social worker, a judge, a Cafcass guardian, what would that be?  

Khalil: I think anyone that comes to work with someone, don't judge them by their skin colour, because you might say, 'Oh, they're brown, or, they're ginger.' At some time, you're going to get judged. Like, a lot of the time I get told, 'Oh, you're a Pakistani, can you speak Urdu or this language?' It's, like, 'Err, no. I'm Arab, I'm from Yemen. I'm not a Pakistani. Why do you judge me?' Don't judge the person. A skin colour does not tell them because a person forms their own identity. So, don't judge, just ask them. Just make the person at ease, confident. If you don't make it easy and simple, how are you going to get something out of that person? You're just going to scare them away and then that person is never going to trust you or want to speak to you again. And, also, if the person can't speak the language, don't judge them and say, 'Oh, okay they can't speak the language, oh, let's go and get someone who they know in school that can speak that language, or, we'll get their family member.' No, never do that because they're not independent. They might not translate to you exactly what the person... the adult professional said to them. They should be always independent, so they can translate to you word for word what's being said by the professional so you can actually give your own views and points across.  

Hannah: Yes, I think that's a really powerful message, and also, you know, talking about culture and identity as well is so important for any practitioner to not make those assumptions as you've spoken about and to have the courage just to have those conversations and not make it too complex. Saying, 'Tell me about it from your point of view. Tell me how you want to be referred to. Talk to me about your culture.' Rather than feeling uncomfortable or making those assumptions.  

Khalil: Because I was that traumatised. They should be saying, 'Oh, where do you want us to meet? Do you want to do it at our office? Do you want to do it somewhere where you actually like or somewhere that you relate to? Or, do you want to go for a walk?' Make it accessible that meets their needs because you're going to get more out of them if it's somewhere confident not somewhere that's, you know, the person knows they're not going to be able to say anything.  

Hannah: Yes, I think that's really important, and some young people will say, 'Don't come and see me in school. I don't want to be taken out of class. I don't want to be, you know, seen to be different or have to miss my education. Or, have my peers say, "Who was that person?" Or even if they don't see the social worker, "Why does every so often, you know, you get taken out of class? What's happening in those situations?"' And I think it's so important that social workers do take that time with each individual young person that they work with to say, 'How is it best that we communicate together? Where do you want that to be?' As you were saying, if there's a problem and if you're worried about something who can you contact in a crisis, and having that support in place. So, that's really powerful, thank you.  

Imogen: Mine would be listen to me from the beginning, because in my proceedings the things I was saying from day one were the exact same things I was saying seven years later, and I really do believe if the professionals who were in my life earlier on had listened to me and had, kind of, shared my view with the court and made the changes in my life that they later made for me, if they'd done that years before I would have been in a much better position and I wouldn't have had so much, kind of, emotional trauma coming out at the court proceedings. So, mine is listen to what I'm saying from the beginning.  

Hannah: Thank you. And what about you Amy?  

Amy: So, it's important to listen to the young person from the beginning as soon as they say something. Take everything that they say as the truth because for them it's their truth. And then also looking at what they're not saying, so, are they reacting in a certain way? What is their behaviour? And then also analysing that behaviour because it's not necessarily behaviour it's also the whole context behind it all. And in terms of language also for professionals to watch out, and one specific example which was in the court when the prosecutor was basically saying to me-, so, the quotes were, 'Rape is a petty crime, I shouldn't be here. I should be dealing with murders.' And for me, that hurt me, it still stayed within me and, you know, there's so much going on for that young person at the time and that again those little words stick with you. And it's about acknowledging everybody's trauma because different traumas are at different... yes, maybe nobody has died but inside your identity your soul and everything is literally tearing away inside you, and that feels like you're dying too. So, actually acknowledging everyone's truth and not putting it down because one thing seems worse than the other.  

Hannah: Thank you. I think, yes, that's a really quite... you know, I found that quite difficult to hear you say and that's your experience as well. So, absolutely we really need to think about the power of language and what impact those words can leave with people that we work with. I want to say a huge thank you to you all for your openness and sharing your stories and this, you know, hopefully will be really helpful to all those social workers and practitioners that are working within family justice to really hear young people's voices and hopefully make positive changes for any other young people and families that are going through any level of court involvement be that criminal or the family courts and work with social workers. So, thank you very much.  

[Outro]    

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